Focus Points

Darcy Grizzle

Well-Known Member
How many focus points do you all use? The reason I am asking is my Tameron 16-300 is very bad at focusing on birds in flight, pretty much nil to be exact if they are not close. Does it make a difference if say you have it set to 10 focal points? I use single focus point always.
 

Ben Egbert

Forum Helper
Staff member
I used to know the answer to this question for a Canon 1DS3 back when I was doing BIF. The trouble is, each camera system is different and I am sure today's models are even different from older models as the AF systems keep getting better.

An old rule of thumb was that original mfg lenses were better for AF then 3rd party and that pro cameras with stronger batteries were better than lesser cameras. The 1DS3 had more voltage to drive the AF faster than say a 50D. It also had a more robust AF system.

I always prefocused at a distance close to where I expected to pick up a bird so the AF did not need to hunt so much. I generally used one AF point with assist from 4 or so surrounding point. The 1ds3 had 45 points I recall but if you used them all, it tended to pick up extraneous things.

You will need to get somebody with the same make as yours with some birding experience.
 

JimFox

Moderator
Staff member
Hey Darcy,

The 16-300mm is a great beginners lens, but there are always compromises with all in one lenses that zoom to such a huge range. Not to say that you can't get great shots from them, but they will never match up to lenses that have a shorter zoom range.

My thinking is you would want to use the central focus point because it's the most accurate. But I could be wrong for BIF.

Hopefully Craig see's this thread as he would be our most knowledgeable person when it comes to shooting BIF with Nikon DX cameras.

Also, aren't you using the Nikon D7000? The camera's ability to focus and track would be even more of the issue for you I think then even the lens. I owned the D7000, and it was an okay camera for the time, but that's one really old camera with pretty limited AF compared to anything out there today.
 

Darcy Grizzle

Well-Known Member
Yes I have had this camera since it came out, so pretty old :). I really want to upgrade. I hear the D7500 is pretty good, a lot better supposedly than the D7000. All my lenses are dx unfortunately as when I purchased them, I didn't know any better and wish I would have gone with the fx lenses as I am thinking I want to get away from crop sensor. I know I can use my lenses on the full frames. It is such an expense though to start over! I do like the lens other than for birds as it really is a great walk around lens.
 

ckcarr

Founding Member
Hi Darcy,

As relates primarily to Nikon...

I can't give you great advice on shooting birds in flight as most of the wildlife I shoot is in their natural habitat doing what critters do. Occasionally I'll get a shot off of something in the air and it's actually in focus. But, as a general rule I either stalk critters or wait for them to come to me. I also use a tripod 95% of the time. And bought a gimbal a few years ago to use with it, although that's 50/50 because it's heavy and a hassle IMO. So the gimbal isn't necessary, and just having the support of a tripod can still let you move the camera around while on a stable platform.

My camera settings, regardless of the model, I start with single point AF-C (not AF-S), or 9-point. Make sure under the cameras custom settings menu (A1 and A2 usually) that AF-C priority selection is "release" and AF-S is "focus." Remember though that "release" means the camera will start shooting while it's still aquiring focus, so many will be out of focus, until it locks in. But it's better than having the camera never fire at all! I'll then use manual settings (M) combined with auto-ISO. So I'll set the aperture about as open as it will go, like f/4 or f/5.6, and start with a shutter speed around 1/2500 or so. If critters are slow, you can slow this down to maybe 1/800, or speed up to what works. The slower the better if your getting sharp shots. However, it's pretty much acknowledged these days that the higher mp cameras need fast shutter speeds with wildlife, or sports, or anything fast moving. At least until you develop good tracking skills and consistency. The old rule of 1/focal length no longer applies - you could triple it. And if something pops out of nowhere you want to get the shot, not some blurry mystery object... Then activate auto-ISO and let it do the exposure work, with a ceiling around ISO 1600 or so, depending on the camera (my D8xx cameras I set at ISO 3200). The hardest part with BIF shooting is finding the bird in the viewfinder and then getting an initial lock on the bird, and that's where the lens does make a difference. Things happen fast and you may think it's focused, but it's not. The more points you use, the slower the camera "thinks" which is why in a perfect world single is best, however you need a compromise that works.

Try and position yourself in a way that lights the subject the best, don't just shoot any which way. You want good flattering light on the subject relative to where your shooting from.

Many people are still using the D7000 with it's 16.2 mp sensor and getting perfectly acceptable results, so a camera upgrade might be nice but not as necessary as getting one good lens you use for wildlife. Use that lens for a while, then learn to fine tune it's focus in-camera and practice technique over and over. Truth is, for every one decent picture I get, there are at least 100 that get thrown away for so many reasons - out of focus, bad backgrounds, poor light, etc. etc... the list is endless. As someone once said, just show your best work, not all your practice. Whnever I shoot, it's usually in a burst of 3-5 shots, and the center one is usually the sharpest.

As far as moving from DX to a full frame, many professional wildlife photographers are using DX cameras like the Nikon D7200 or the D500 because of the 1.5 crop factor, which is better than a teleconverter IMO. They'll use full-frame for landscapes. Many have kits of two complimentary cameras. D850 & D500, or D750 and D7200, etc...

If you wanted to blow a small amount of cash today, and that's the problem with good wildlife photography ($$,$$$) --> MONEY!
This is what people are using in the Nikon world (before getting elite):

D500 ($1,900)
or
D7200 ($999)

The D500 is a processional build, very similar to the D850 full frame, where the D7200 is just like your camera, very good build and much lighter. The D500 is also 20.4mp versus the D7200 at 24.2 mp

As far as lenses:

Nikon AF-S 300mm f/4E PF ED VR ($2,000) and carry a Nikon AF-S Teleconverter TC-14E III ($500)
or
Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 200-500mm f/5.6E ED VR ($1,400)

So you can see why people all are buying the 200-500, it's cheaper. The 300mm is the choice when weight and size matters (and it's just a better lens). It's a really small light and sharp lens. It's also a constant aperture.

Other 3rd party choices are the Tamron and Sigma 150-600 lenses. Just be aware that the Sigma "Sport" version is one heavy beast, and works best with some support or a gimbal. So the Sigma "Contemporary" for $989 is a much lighter and better choice for most. I don't know anything about the Tamron.

However... Everything can be bought "pre-owned" if your careful. And I always recommend the older Nikon 300mm f/4 AF-S (without VR) which can be found for around $550-$600. I still use that lens and it's one of my favorites. You just want to try and find a more recent serial number (the old ones had some compatibility issues with newer cameras).


My thought on losing money starting over is that it's like paying tuition. Just about everyone starts with DX because it's a cheap entry into photography. Then, if they like it and see other pictures it becomes "I want to do that!" So you start the upgrade path... and so it goes.

Oh, last thing. There is a guy you may know of, Steve Perry, he puts together lots of YouTube videos and has written a couple books on wildlife photography that are really helpful. He's also super helpful and you could email him and he'll respond to you. I really suggest watching his relevant videos here: https://www.youtube.com/user/backcountrygallery/videos

And this is his website: https://backcountrygallery.com/


So, that's my rambling for Saturday morning...
 
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Darcy Grizzle

Well-Known Member
so the D7200 over the D7500? If I stay crop which makes more sense. I do like the 1.5 crop factor with the dx's. Thanks for the info & the links Craig :)
 

JimFox

Moderator
Staff member
Hey Darcy, there is some awesome advice and suggestions by Craig! I am glad he contributed here.

As to DX vs FX. What are your shooting habits. Do you primarily shoot Birds? If landscape is what you shoot the most of, you will want to go to FX. In my opinion there is just no comparison between the quality of the image between DX and FX.

Years ago when my D700 died a premature death from swimming in the ocean, I was stuck with only shooting my D7000. I will tell you I hated it completely. Oh I shot with it, because it was all I had. At that time there were rumors of the D800 coming out at some time, so it didn't make financial sense for me to buy another D700 when the rumored D800 was going to have better resolution, etc. So I am totally honest I suffered for a year with the D7000. When one gets used to the juicy fat files for full frame images and then you have to go back to the skinny DX (Crop sensor) files it would make you cry.

And while DX lenses can be used on FX bodies, that is not a long term solution. Because in order for that to happen, your FX body then has to shoot in a DX cropped mode.

What you will need to do I think, is sit down and list what you shoot most of to help determine FX or DX. And then figure out what focal lengths you shoot the most at, and then start with one or two lenses to meet those needs. To move from DX to FX, or to move from beginner lenses to better quality lenses will cost money, there is no way around that. So figuring out the path to better quality photos from a technical aspect is what you should do.
 

Darcy Grizzle

Well-Known Member
No I am really not a birder! Only Raptors if I get the chance to see them :) and hummers. Quite a few of my friends are in love with shooting birds & it just doesn't thrill me as much. I shoot mainly landscapes & wildlife, and try other things in between! And I do like macro and am starting to get into that a little more. I really don't shoot much people, as I find they are never happy with their images & it is more work than joy to me, if you know what I mean.
 

ckcarr

Founding Member
Well,
Then I'm with Jim. Although I have the D500 I shoot all my wildlife with a full frame body, either the D810 or the D850. With the 36mp there is great opportunity for cropping if you need to. I actually bought the D500 just to see why everyone was so excited about it. But crop isn't really for me.
 

JimFox

Moderator
Staff member
No I am really not a birder! Only Raptors if I get the chance to see them :) and hummers. Quite a few of my friends are in love with shooting birds & it just doesn't thrill me as much. I shoot mainly landscapes & wildlife, and try other things in between! And I do like macro and am starting to get into that a little more. I really don't shoot much people, as I find they are never happy with their images & it is more work than joy to me, if you know what I mean.
Then I would say your next step should be an FX camera. DX cameras are cheaper and can be tempting, but you really should start saving and planning for a Full Frame. You can certainly shoot the occasional bird or two with a FX camera, but the FX excels over DX without doubt when it comes to Landscape and most everything else. Until you actually edit a FX photo, there is no way to really appreciate just how juicy the raw image is from Full Frame compared to the skinny DX raw.

The D750 is the entry FX camera, that is 24mp, but very capable and does very well in low light and has a tilt screen. Last check they are about $1500 new.

The D810 is 36mp and the old standard. It's now available for $2800

The D850 is 46mp and is the new king of Full Frame, it's available for $3200

You will want probably 3 lenses to start with, or maybe even just one if you want to break into it slow.

Wide Angle, the Bread and Butter of Landscape. Nikons 16-35mm is a great all around lens

Normal. Go with the Nikon 24-120mm. I very solid performer, I love mine, it's my walk around lens. It can included as a package with the D750 or D850 to save a little money.

Long lens. The 70-300mm is a great place to start with that. Or you could just go get the 80-400mm Nikon or one the Sigma sport 150-600m.

Anyway, just ideas, you can research. I would recommend sticking with Nikon for the camera body, but for the lenses, lots of people are happy with some of the Sigma or Tamron alternative lenses and often you can save some money that way.
 
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