Milky Way lesson 2. (image added at end of post)

[Ben Egbert]

Last night I realized that since the moonset was 4:02PM, I could go do a MW and not wait for the full dark moon on the 17th. This was strictly a learning trip with no intention of getting a great MW. As it turns out, my spot is not a good MW location. Too much light pollution from Utah Valley and also from incessant vehicle travel as you see. But it does afford a place where I can get a MW and I did.

I used my 11-24 f4 lens at 11, 14, 16 and 19 mm. 19 was supposed to be 20. All images at IS03200 and 30 seconds with long exposure NR turned on. Processing is minimal and just enough to show the potential. I used Topaz AI with NR reduced to 0.10 and Sharpness also at 0.10 and detail at 0. Other settings mushed up shadows in the foreground. The sky noise was very acceptable at these levels.

I started with an 11mm horizontal but saw that vertical was called for. I tried a longer exposure for foreground detail but it did not work too well and my camera moved making a blend problematical.

I can now see why this is getting late in the season for MW shots and in fact part of this lesson was to learn something about where and when the MW is best seen and to learn some planning using some of the aps I have loaded. I have a lot more to learn.

My conclusion is that for vertical MW shots, any of these focal lengths could work with the 11 being the most problematical because it needs to be tilted so radically and includes too much foreground with bad distortions. The 11-24 is a fairly suitable night lens and I will probably wait until I can test it on a Canon 5R with better noise before I buy a special lens. Looks like MW season is over until next spring anyway.

Comments and corrections to my conclusions most encouraged.

11mm horizontal

11mm vertical

14mm vertical

16mm vertical

19mm vertical

 

[Bob]

Ben,
Nice attempt on your first try at it. I have found the best month to shoot the milky way is June however, July, and August are great also. Your 30 second exposure is pushing just a bit to long because you are starting to pick up star trails. I tend to shoot my milky way at f1.8 iso 1600 or 3200 and 20 seconds exposure but that is because i am shooting a 20mm prime lens. When I have an interesting foreground which I generally try for I do two shots. One shot for the foreground early evening then not moving my camera I take the milky way a few hours later. Then I stack the two images in photoshop. At 14 and 11mm you can probably get away with a 30 second exposure but I still try 25 or 20 seconds.
Hope this helps.
Bob

 

[Ben Egbert]

Thanks Bob, and also thanks for guessing I am a newbie which I am, but this is by no means my first attempt. I am aware that I was pushing things at 30 seconds above 14mm, but the object here was to see the effects of fl, versus how much MW was captured. I did not want to fuss with different settings once I had one that worked.

 

[JimFox]

Hey Ben,

I think your test went well. It sounds like you learned a few more things about the Milky Way and it's positioning. Since the Milky Way has maybe 1 more month it could be shot until March, you probably are wise to hold off on any lens decisions for now any way.

I did read a rumor I think about Canon coming out with an awesome Astro lens for the RF system too. It will probably be expensive, but it might be one you could trade the 11-24mm on. I will try to find the link again, but I think it was for a 12-24mm f2.8 lens with the native RF mount.

 

[Bob]

Hey Ben,

I think your test went well. It sounds like you learned a few more things about the Milky Way and it's positioning. Since the Milky Way has maybe 1 more month it could be shot until March, you probably are wise to hold off on any lens decisions for now any way.

I did read a rumor I think about Canon coming out with an awesome Astro lens for the RF system too. It will probably be expensive, but it might be one you could trade the 11-24mm on. I will try to find the link again, but I think it was for a 12-24mm f2.8 lens with the native RF mount.

Jim,
Do you know if the lens would be an "L" lens. I would be interested in the info also. I have not seen anything about a new astro lens.
Bob

 

[Ben Egbert]

Hey Ben,

I think your test went well. It sounds like you learned a few more things about the Milky Way and it's positioning. Since the Milky Way has maybe 1 more month it could be shot until March, you probably are wise to hold off on any lens decisions for now any way.

I did read a rumor I think about Canon coming out with an awesome Astro lens for the RF system too. It will probably be expensive, but it might be one you could trade the 11-24mm on. I will try to find the link again, but I think it was for a 12-24mm f2.8 lens with the native RF mount.

Thanks Jim. I also had more insights last night which I want to share and have validated.

1. My exposure at f4, ISO 3200 and 30 seconds was about right, any more exposures tended to wash out the sky.

2. The MW is weak and I attribute that to light pollution.

3. The above being correct, and the fact that noise was acceptable, this lens is acceptable (just) for the sky.

4. I am including a blend that has a 2 minute exposure at f4 ISO2000. It was a hard blend because of movement between shots, but auto align saved the day.

5. Based on what I saw in the longer exposure, I should have stopped down, dropped ISO and used a 5 minute exposure.

6. I am really interested in that 12-24 f2.8 RF lens.

Blended 30 second sky and 2 minute foreground.

 

[JimFox]

I like your newest photo Ben! The look of it works really well. Typically I have found a 5 minute exposure where I am over exposing about 1 to 2 stops from my sky exposure works great if there is no moon.The reason for 5 mins is to allow you to lower your ISO enough that the noise levels really drop, and to also be able to stop the lens down a step or two so that things are sharper on the ground.

Any way, you are making great steps Ben!

 

[Ben Egbert]

Hey Jim, thanks for the feedback. I may try one more at a different location, that may have more light pollution, but less traffic. I looked at the Rokinon 14 f2.8 AF and saw that it needs to be stopped down to f4 to match the 11-24 at f4, so there is that.

 

[JimFox]

Ben, when I had the Rokinon 14mm f2.8 it was super sharp at f2.8. So not sure where you got needing to stop it down to f4, I never did on mine.

One other thought for you, just because you can’t see the Milky Way well in the winter doesn’t mean you can’t go out and shoot night time photos. The night sky is more then the Milky Way. So you can work on your technique all winter. If you can get great looking night photos with just stars, then you will also be able to do it with the Milky Way.

 

[JimFox]

I just made a post with the rumor of the 14-21mm lens. I know I had said 14-24mm f2.8, but then rumor is for a 14-21mm at f1.4 which is even better!

https://www.focalworld.com/threads/canon-14-21mm-f1-4-lens.14252/

 

[Ben Egbert]

Thanks for finding this Jim, wow what an ultimate lens that would be. I bet it will be pricey.

 

[Ben Egbert]

Hey, Jim, it was a test report that said the center was not sharp until f4. It may not matter for stars. But no matter, it would still need to be stopped down for foreground.

Good idea on winter but I don't have any nearby locations that are accessible in winter. The place I just shot will be closed in November and not open until June.

 

[JimFox]

Hey, Jim, it was a test report that said the center was not sharp until f4. It may not matter for stars. But no matter, it would still need to be stopped down for foreground.

Good idea on winter but I don't have any nearby locations that are accessible in winter. The place I just shot will be closed in November and not open until June.

How about some farming area's? Can you get to some farm land with barns or buildings within an easy drive? Maybe do something like that?

I had that lens and I found it to be sharp at f2.8 in the center. I think sharpness can often be subjective even besides the fact that not all copies are the same. But I had a couple of them, and I found them to be extremely sharp, obviously the more you stop down a lens from wide open, the sharper the corners will be. But I found the corners to be acceptable even at wide open. And of course, what's acceptable to me might not be acceptable to you. But in general, the sharpness you might desire during daylight on the ground will not always be the same at night. It's not uncommon for the ground to be a little soft, not blurry soft, but often the ground won't be tack sharp at night, I think that's something you will need to come to grips with, or it will end up driving you crazy.

 

[Ben Egbert]

Right Jim. I notice my 11-24 was fuzzy on the ground in my night shots and I did some practice shots during the day and it was fine. I think it’s lack of contrast in the dark. I really like the way they look under a partial moon like when we’re at the temple

 

[Kyle Jones]

Longer exposures make it more likely that things will move too. Hyperfocal distance for a shot at 14mm f/2.8 is 8 feet, so there really shouldn't be a reason to stop down for DOF unless you have a foreground within 4 feet of the camera.

 

[JimFox]

Longer exposures make it more likely that things will move too. Hyperfocal distance for a shot at 14mm f/2.8 is 8 feet, so there really shouldn't be a reason to stop down for DOF unless you have a foreground within 4 feet of the camera.

Good points and reminders Kyle.

When I do stop down a bit from f1.8 or f2.8 depending on the lens I use I do take into consideration if there is anything in the image that can move, and if there is a breeze or not. I probably get 90% of my night time shots in just one shot, so I am not stopping down anyway. But in the cases where it's a super dark night with no moon and I decide I need to shoot the ground layer seperately, I will (taking the wind and any vegetation into consideration) will stop down a a bit simply to get the corners a bit sharper then. I figure since I am having to take a 2nd shot anyway just for the ground, I might as well sharpen up the edges a bit more.

 

[JimFox]

Right Jim. I notice my 11-24 was fuzzy on the ground in my night shots and I did some practice shots during the day and it was fine. I think it’s lack of contrast in the dark. I really like the way they look under a partial moon like when we’re at the temple

Partial moons are the best in my book Ben!

As Kyle mentioned, things can move in the dark, but I do agree with you when it's too dark there is that contrast sharpness that get's lost sometimes.

 

[Ben Egbert]

Ok, so I did some calculations based on what I already know. 14mm f4 iso3200 works fine for the sky. Also F4 on my 11-24 is sharp except corners.

So if I want to get two stops more and lower my ISO to 2000 and aperture to f5.6, I need a 6.2 minute exposure. If it's windy, any exposure even 30 seconds will be a bust. But often there is no wind.

This is my next experiment.

 

[JimFox]

For your next experiment you may want to set up for sunset with it also being your composition for the night shots. Shoot through the darker twilight time with the idea that since those will be slightly darker, but they can be shot with a faster shutter speed and a Lower ISO.

Then if later it does get to dark and you just can’t get a clean feeling ground image, you can use that twilight shot as your base image to lay the sky onto later.

Even though I rarely use that image, I will almost always take a twilight image for that purpose. It’s a good backup to have just in case.

 

[Ben Egbert]

I might do that Jim, but I am having a hard time figuring out what I am going to do during the 6.2 min exposure plus the 6.2 min long shutter nr. I have a strenuous hike to this next location and a great place to fall at night. Not my best time of day. Being up there for an hour or so is not something I look forward too.
But I have found that my camera has a timer for bulb. I just set it to bulb 6.2 min iso 2000 and f5.6 and assigned this to one of my custom functions. Now I can do this automatically without stumbling Round the menu system at night when a can’t read the lcd